[ros-users] ROS usability (was: ROS & DDS)

Wed Feb 19 18:28:31 UTC 2014

Adam,

In regards to speed of bringing up new packages, to what extent is the
> community aware of catkin_simple <https://github.com/catkin/catkin_simple> ?
> Is there a plan to officially release this and put it in the debs? It does
> make setting up a new workspace quite a bit easier and is great for
> development. (It seems perhaps nothing should be *released* this way, but a
> conversion from catkin_simple to plain catkin isn't so bad, and is probably
> worth the time, once you have a testable system in place.)

We haven't published `catkin_simple` yet because we do not feel it is
ready. Dirk and I created it in an afternoon as a proof of concept. To be
ready, IMO, it needs documentation, a code review, catkin_create_simple?,
tutorials, testing, a maintainer to do releases, and probably needs a
better name too. This along with REP-140 (
https://github.com/ros-infrastructure/rep/blob/rep140/rep-0140.rst) which
introduces the `<depend>` tag, and my `parallel_catkin_make_isolated` tool (
https://github.com/ros/catkin/pull/330), `pcmi` for short, that I wrote
recently for a non-ROS client are the three things I would like to see in
Indigo to improve ease of use of the build system in ROS.

For some of those things we are in the critical path (REP-140), and we will
try to get them done as soon as we are able, but the other items could
benefit from community help.

On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Adam Leeper <adamleeper at gmail.com> wrote:

> My last reply was rejected from the list, hopefully this isn't duplicate.
>
> Jonathan, your tutorials are awesome! I especially appreciate how the
> catkin intro motivates and explains *why* one might want a build system and
> proper dependency management. I've bookmarked your articles :)
>
> In regards to speed of bringing up new packages, to what extent is the
> community aware of catkin_simple <https://github.com/catkin/catkin_simple> ?
> Is there a plan to officially release this and put it in the debs? It does
> make setting up a new workspace quite a bit easier and is great for
> development. (It seems perhaps nothing should be *released* this way, but a
> conversion from catkin_simple to plain catkin isn't so bad, and is probably
> worth the time, once you have a testable system in place.)
>
> --Adam
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Adam Leeper
> 650.ROBOT.44
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 1:36 AM, Daniel Stonier <d.stonier at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> Accidentally hit send, sorry. Continuing...
>>
>> I have watched and avoided entering alot of discussions about usability
>> over the last six months. Given that they're repeating, they're obviously a
>> concern to many, but it's probably time to start doing rather than talking.
>> If you have time, write some code (see previous email), test every which
>> way but loose and then harry Tully & co if you think it needs to be
>> integrated at a more fundamental level (e.g. catkin_create scripts). I like
>> seeing things like roslint which Mike and Jack have done a splendid job on.
>>
>> To be honest, I'd rather see William work on crazy issues like middleware
>> debate than consuming inordinate amounts of oxygen and pizza in order to
>> writing catkin_create scripts - that's where the average grad student or
>> company engineer can help out with a bit of guidance.
>>
>> There is another point I'd like to bring up about usability. To me
>>
>> *usability* != *ease of use for beginners*.
>>
>> I wouldn't consider something usable if, despite being brilliant for a
>> newbie, it isn't capable of doing everything that it's specified to do.
>>
>> I think it's very important for people to sit down and work out the
>> fundamental set of things that ROS must do, make everyone aware of these
>> and THEN consider how to best make ros easy to use whilst being capable of
>> that fundamental set of things. Only then do you have what I'd call a
>> *usable* system. Alot of 'ease of use' discussions are often unaware of
>> the very important practical needs that you don't see within the first day
>> (or sometimes ever depending on your work) of becoming a rosified human.
>> Good examples of this include the needs of research robots vs product
>> robots, embedded needs, connecting outside the robot to pc's, the lan or
>> the web. This lack of awareness has a habit of diverting attention from
>> whatever original discussion was started. At least some separate threads
>> were made here (thanks to whoever did this!).
>>
>> Ok, back to the wonderful world of ROS (kicks ass on emails, although
>> admittedly emails about ROS aren't so bad....)!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Daniel.
>>
>>
>> On 19 February 2014 18:14, Daniel Stonier <d.stonier at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 February 2014 00:21, Ryan Gariepy <rgariepy at clearpathrobotics.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> So, I actually ask "What would you improve about ROS" in every single
>>>> related job interview I conduct...I've got a long list.
>>>>
>>>> On ROS usability itself, the largest thing which has come up has been
>>>> the renewed difficulty in getting started. Even though new users are no
>>>> longer being thrown into the middle of the rosmake/catkin transition, the
>>>> overhead in creating a new package has increased dramatically.
>>>>
>>>> It's been a long time since I've used the rosmake/rospy/Electric combo,
>>>> but IIRC all you needed to do was:
>>>> 1) Source setup.bash
>>>> 2) Call the package creation script
>>>> 3) Write a .py script
>>>> 4) Add the package to ROS_PACKAGE_PATH
>>>>
>>>> Three of those four steps are one-liners, and the fourth has
>>>> near-instant gratification for the developers.
>>>>
>>>> Another point: ROS used to be three steps for a full install: (key,
>>>> update, install), and now you need to jump through hoops for rosdep and
>>>> other "noncritical yet required" items.
>>>>
>>>> Something else which is important to note is that the purpose of all of
>>>> those above steps are easily explainable to someone who knows nothing about
>>>> ROS at all, which is certainly not the case now. (ex. "Why do I have to
>>>> specify basic ROS dependencies in three different locations?", "Why do I
>>>> need to set up build instructions for a script I intend to run in place?")
>>>>
>>>> So, we've made development and installation more difficult by leaps and
>>>> bounds, and now we have the potential to make the same mistake with the
>>>> transport layer?
>>>>
>>>> IMO, we should all keep in mind that ROS is where it is in large part
>>>> due to it being easy to install and get started on. I'm not saying at all
>>>> that we should stop improving performance, but I am saying that we should
>>>> consider the "getting started" for new developers more than we have been.
>>>> Even from a personal note, it sometimes takes me longer to set up a
>>>> workspace and package setup for a quick test than it does for me to write
>>>> the actual code. True, I can set up templates and scripts to speed this
>>>> up...but why should I have to?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I actually think all of these issues can be very quickly remedied,
>>> except perhaps for the little extra effort involved in adding a bit more
>>> information to CMakeLists.txt and setup.py than there used to be.
>>>
>>> We even go to some of this effort internally and have a few tools that
>>> make life easier for interns/engineers who aren't so familiar with ros and
>>> are often only temporarily in and out of the ros team.  For them getting
>>> started with something like turtlebot is as easy as:
>>>
>>> # Pull rosinstalls located by our rosdistro like github database<https://github.com/yujinrobot/yujin_tools/tree/master/rosinstalls>
>>> > yujin_init_workspace turtlebot ./turtlebot
>>> > cd turtlebot
>>> # Create a whole bunch of useful scripts for starting konsole,
>>> gnome-terminal, eclipse with sourced setup.bash
>>> > yujin_init_build .
>>> # Install all dependencies and compile
>>> > yujin_make --install-rosdeps
>>>
>>> From there we also have a few of our own catkin_create_xxx wizards -
>>> e.g. for java we utilise catkin_create_rosjava_package,
>>> catkin_create_rosjava_library_project, catkin_create_rosjava_project. Ros
>>> could definitely use some extra default catkin_create_xxx scripts and this
>>> would simplify things alot for *new* users and with these, I don't see
>>> it really being that much more difficult than electric.
>>>
>>> Perhaps this small (and it is small compared to catkin or a middleware
>>> overhaul) effort should be given higher priority given the anxiety this
>>> issue creates.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Thibault Kruse <kruset at in.tum.de>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> > Ease of use is *critical*. We're already receiving regular feedback
>>>>> > that the usability of ROS is getting worse with each distribution.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > -Ryan
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ryan,
>>>>>
>>>>> it would be interesting to hear more details about what parts of ROS
>>>>> suffered usability most, and what impact this has on Clearpath Robotics
>>>>> Business.
>>>>>
>>>>> The question about DDS was not asked by some OSRF technical underling
>>>>> or
>>>>> the ROS platform manager, but by the OSRF CEO. So we can presume that
>>>>> the
>>>>> internal discussion about DDS at OSRF is not just philantrophic idle
>>>>> talk,
>>>>> but more relevant to the future of OSRF itself (not just ROS).
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems unclear whether the loss of usability of ROS will have an
>>>>> impact
>>>>> on OSRF funding, or whether OSRF should invest into integrating
>>>>> accepted
>>>>> industry standards (like DDS) into ROS rather than improving usability.
>>>>>
>>>>> The loss of usability itself is a pity, but OSRF closing shop would be
>>>>> much more dramatic for the future of ROS.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>>   Thibault
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ros-users mailing list
>>>>> ros-users at lists.ros.org
>>>>> http://lists.ros.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-users
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ros-users mailing list
>>>> ros-users at lists.ros.org
>>>> http://lists.ros.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Phone : +82-10-5400-3296 (010-5400-3296)
>>> Home: http://snorriheim.dnsdojo.com/
>>> Yujin R&D: http://rnd.yujinrobot.com/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Phone : +82-10-5400-3296 (010-5400-3296)
>> Home: http://snorriheim.dnsdojo.com/
>> Yujin R&D: http://rnd.yujinrobot.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ros-users mailing list
>> ros-users at lists.ros.org
>> http://lists.ros.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-users
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ros-users mailing list
> ros-users at lists.ros.org
> http://lists.ros.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-users
>
>

-- 
William Woodall
ROS Development Team
william at osrfoundation.org
http://williamjwoodall.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ros.org/pipermail/ros-users/attachments/20140219/c810456d/attachment.html>